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Permalink Reply by Lavoisier Cornerstone on June 2, 2008 at 8:22pm

Lol...mixed feelings. I have the same disdain for making money and material possessions the crux of the gospel. But I ALSO have a disdain for making pain, sickness, and continual suffering the crux of the gospel as well. One of my daughters had a mark of eczema on her face that WOULD NOT go away...until a man of God laid hands on her, rebuked the hand of the enemy and it began to dry up from that very week and NEVER came back, that was 5 years ago AND eczema ran in my family. I've also experienced MANY miracles (REAL miracles) in the area of finance AND material possessions (Cars and vans (plural), money, etc.).

So just like we can't remove the persecution and enduring hardship scriptures (which DEFINITELY need more emphasis today) from the bible, neither can we remove the passages that assure of and PROMISE natural blessings.

*Luke 6:38
(Let's me know that even though I give from a pure motive, that there is a LAW of sowing and reaping).
*Matthew 6:32,33 (Tells me that if I set my affections on God, the goods of this world will be given to me by God).
*Psalm 1:1-3 (Tells me that God will prosper what I set my hand to do...as unto Him of course)...And you KNOW it goes on, lol.

To downplay these scriptures in order to make right some concept of inherent poverty in the gospel, is JUST as much of a PERVERSION as it is with those who try to make these scriptures say that everyone should be driving a Bentley (Feeling that GT Coup hardbody though...lol).

Lavoisier
Rap Terrorist
Boondock Saint Gang
AOmega Global Military aka That Jesus Set

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Permalink Reply by The Real Pae on June 3, 2008 at 11:50pm

DJ Wade O said "John Piper hates the Prosperity Gospel..."

So do I!

More to come...

Won, LES!

"We must never assume the gospel. We must always assume that those we serve need to hear the gospel yet again. Any sermon we preach is incomplete and insufficient until we explicitly reference Christ and him crucified." - C.J. Mahaney

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Permalink Reply by Prophetik Soul on June 23, 2008 at 4:40pm

I dont think John Piper is saying that you should take a vow of poverty.

The point is that most of what I hear of the prosperity gospel encourages greed. Now, I know folk who are in prosperity churches that dont believe everything they say. So I am not going to broadbrush everyone who is in a prosperity church.

1. The Bible is against greed in all forms. It is a form of idolatry because it focuses on self and status. (Solomon is a prime example)
2. We are to live according to God's will which encompasses our finances but finances are not the central motivation for our faith.
3. If it is easier for a camel to go through an eye of a needle than a rich man to enter heaven, what is Jesus telling us?
4. We should ask God to provide what we need, not what we always want. Everyone was not meant to be rich and some people are rich because of greed.

There needs to be a balance in how we develop our faith, serve God and help others. Some people point to material riches as a form of God's blessings. There is no scripture that suggests that this is the case with Christians ALL the time. The prophets consisently called out people for indulging their own selfish desires and ignoring the oppressed, the fatherless and the widows.

More later!

Peace!

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Permalink Reply by Mello the DJ on July 23, 2008 at 4:46pm

I believe God does want us to prosper. Financial prosperity is not total life prosperity. Poverty, sickness, disease, and death entered the world through sin. Before the fall of man, none of these things existed. I truly believe if any man is defrauding God's people he will pay for it.

If I don't agree with one man's theology, I pray for him. I search the scriptures myself and rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth to me. If you confess Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you are my brother. We're both going to heaven (as long as that belief doesn't change). Whether you agree with my theology or not, I love you.

I also believe you don't have to down someone else's doctrine to further your own. In politics that's called mud-slinging.

We all want to prosper. I think that's evident by the ratio of posts on this board pertaining to promotions vs theology. Contrary to popular belief there isn't any inherent humility in poverty, nor is there any inherent pridefulness or arrogance in affluence. It's all about the heart of the person. The material gain only magnifies what's already in you.


God Bless,

Mello

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Permalink Reply by Juan_Jose on July 24, 2008 at 5:37pm

i dont think prosperity and all that is wrong, but if you get that gift of money give generously and gleefully,and lift God up even in suffering..this is just the same as us here at illspot:
were all musicians, lyracists, dj's, computer savvy's, and the fans who want positive music and dish out support to those who God has blessed with the talents above; we all have decided to first give our lives to Christ and as in the track by hillsong united, all dont care what it costs any more, cause Christ gave it all and we follow Him, and in making this descision, weve all decided to make other descisions to give of our talents to Him, or even stop listening to stuff that doesnt glorify Him, we happily give of the talents God blessed us with back to Him, and its the same thing if you got bread, happily give of it just like any other talent/blessing God gives us.
grace and peace,-juan_jose

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Permalink Reply by ReAsOn the DRiLL SeRgEaNt© 2 hours ago

Okay! Okay! Let's see what Paul says about the prosperity gospel!!!

PAUL SAW THE HANDWRITING ON THE WALL
Only a few years into Paul’s ministry, he told the Corinthian Congregation of the corruption already in the Church:
"For we [the FEW CHOSEN, FIRSTFRUITS] ARE NOT THE MANY [CALLED who are not chosen, but CALLED which are those who are THE END-OF-THE-YEAR FEAST OF INGATHERING (Feast of Tabernacles)], WHICH CORRUPT THE WORD OF GOD: but [WE ARE THE FEW CHOSEN OUT OF THE CALLED] as of SINCERITY, but [WE ARE THE FEW CHOSEN OUT OF THE CALLED] as of God, in the sight of God speak we [the FEW CHOSEN, FIRSTFRUITS, THE WORD OF GOD AS OF SINCERITY, IN THE SIGHT OF GOD SPEAK WE] in Christ." (II Cor. 2:17).
Now I hope you all know that I love the King James, and it is true as stated in this verse that they "corrupted" the word of God, but this verse tells us much more than the King James translators present in this verse. Let’s read a few other translations of this same verse:
"For we are not, as THE MANY, driving a PETTY TRADE with the word of God…" (A New Translation, By J. B. Rotherham).
"For we are not as the MAJORITY, who are PEDDLING the word of God…" (Concordant Literal New Testament).
"For I seek not PROFIT [LIKE MOST] by setting the word of God TO SALE…" (The Epistles of Paul, By Conybeare).
"Unlike MANY PEOPLE, we are not in the habit of MAKING PROFIT out of God’s Message" (The Twentieth Century New Testament).
"For I am no PEDDLER of God’s message LIKE MOST MEN" (An American Translation, By Goodspeed).
"For I am not like MOST, TRAFFICKING in the word of God" (The New Testament in Modern English, By Montgomery).
"For we are not like THE GREAT NUMBER who make use of the Word of God for PROFIT" (The New Testament in Basic English).
"For we do not, like SO MANY, PEDDLE [for profit] an adulterated message of God" (The Berkeley Version of the New Testament, By Gerrit Verkuyl).

ADULTERATING HUCKSTERS OF GOD’S WORD
Does anyone have any doubts now, as to what this verse is saying? I hope not. But there is still more in this verse that does not meet the eye of understanding unless we check the Greek. The word from which "corrupt," "profit," "peddling," and "trafficking" was taken, is the Greek word kapeleuo, and it means much more than simply selling for a profit: Strong’s Greek Dictionary of The New Testament: #2585. kapeleuo (a huckster); to retail, i.e. (by impl.) to adulterate. This word means to be a retailer, to peddle, to hucksterize; hence, intentionally to get base gain by dealing in anything, to do anything for sordid personal advantage." (P. 128). WOW! But wait … here’s one more definition:
From Greek-English Keyword Concordance, "peddle [kapeleu’o], sell at retail, with the insinuation of improper profit, either by overcharging or adulterating"(P. 220).
Can you even begin to understand and believe what you are reading? Paul said that it was the MAJORITY that were retailing, selling, peddling, huckstering, an adulterated version of God’s word by overcharging improper profits far beyond rational living expenses for their own base gain and sordid personal advantage! Not only was this practice CORRUPT, but, it was being done by "THE MANY," "THE MAJORITY!" Tell me that you can’t see this being done in the church today?

MODERN TV RELIGIOUS SIDESHOW AUCTIONEERS
Turn on your TV. The majority are selling, peddling, hucksterizing an adulterated version of God’s word for improper profit and personal gain! Your will hear sermons on such subjects as, "Planting Seed", or "Seedtime and Harvest," or "Making a Financial Covenant with God," or "Becoming a Faith Partner," or "Tithing on the Gross," or "Your Welfare Check Belongs to God," or "At What Age Should One Tithe?" or "Tithing Your Way to Financial Freedom," or best of all, "Will a Man ROB God?" etc., etc., etc.
At various times during the show, you will be offered: BOOKS, TAPES, PAMPHLETS, VIDEOS, STATUES, PINS, TRINKETS, MEMBERSHIP CARDS, PLAQUES, CANDLES, CERTIFICATES (always suitable for framing), COMMEMORATIVE COINS, BAGS OF SALT, VIALS OF OIL, DIRT FROM THE HOLY LAND, WATER FROM THE SEA OF GALILEE, AND EVERY CONCEIVABLE PIECE OF RELIGIOUS JUNK AND PARAPHERNALIA IMAGINABLE, all for big bucks, (plus shipping and handling)!!
Or maybe you could catch one of Pastor Shambach’s "God Told Me…" sermons. Pastor Shambach has been coercing people on international television for the past several years to send two thousand dollars to TBN. He said that GOD TOLD HIM THAT EVERYONE WHO IS IN DEBT AND WANTS TO GET OUT OF DEBT NEEDS TO SEND to TBN TWO THOUSAND DOLLARS (and if you don’t have two thousand dollars, then you are to send it in by smaller installments)! And if you have money left over, you can go to a thousand web sites where these same religious hucksters have whole stores of religious accouterments for which you can spend your money. I opened one site one time just out of curiosity. They boasted over ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY THOUSAND items for sale.
Sorry, I got carried away. Continuing:

HOW THE APOSTLE PAUL FINANCED HIS INTERNATIONAL MINISTRY
Worldliness in the Church today is not looked upon as shameful, but rather as being chic. Power, wealth, and notoriety are not things to be repented of, but are rather to be lusted after and pursued with great vigor. Young aspiring ministers are not thought to be vain or ambitious when seeking worldliness, but are rather thought of as being enthusiastic for the work of the Lord. Let’s see how Paul did things.
"For yourselves know how you ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you: Neither did we eat any man’s bread for naught; but wrought with labor and travail NIGHT AND DAY, that we might not be chargeable to any man. Not because we have not power, but to MAKE OURSELVES AN EXAMPLE UNTO YOU TO FOLLOW US" (II Thessalonians 3:7-9).
But how many truly follow Paul’s example? You be the judge.
"For ye remember, brethren, our labor and travail: for LABOURING NIGHT AND DAY, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the Gospel of God" (I Thessalonians 2:9).
Imagine that: Paul could not only walk and chew gum at the same time, but he could work "night and day" and "preach the Gospel of God" at the same time! Just maybe there is a lesson in there somewhere. Paul travels to Corinth:
"And because he was of the same craft [trade], he abode with them, and wrought [worked]: for by their occupation they were tentmakers" (Acts 18:3).
"I have coveted no man’s silver, or gold, or apparel. Yea, ye [all of you] yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. I have showed you all things how that so laboring ye ought to support the weak, and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how He said, It is more blessed to give than to receive" (Acts 20:33- 31).
Don’t kid yourself, there’s a whole army of men of the cloth out there coveting your gold and your silver. Many television ministries are little more than highly sophisticated Hollywood-produced, tithe-collecting infomercials. They make me ill watching them.
One final example of how Paul ministered and financed his ministry:
"For I think that God has set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
We are fools for Christ’s sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honorable, but we are despised.
Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwelling place;
And labor, working with our own hands; being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Therefore I beseech you, BE YE FOLLOWERS OF ME" (I Cor. 4:9-16)!
Cheerfully giving from the heart is a virtue. However, fraudulently fleecing the flock by exacting ten percent of parishioner's paychecks under fear of breaking an Old Testament law of tithing is a sin!
It is far past time that we offer a little comfort to the millions of people in our nation and around the world who are chafing under the constant burden of supporting ministers and televangelists who live lifestyles so materialistic and worldly that even Hugh Heffner would be envious. I’m not trying to be humorous about these characters; I’m dead serious.
Well I certainly don’t begrudge any minister an honest living. However, I do believe that when many of these modern televangelists (and others) feel the need to have everything they own gold gilded, just maybe their greed and vanity starts to destroy their effectiveness as dispensers of God’s Truths.
There is no need for people to feel guilty over any religious doctrine. It is time we rid ourselves of guilty consciences. Hopefully, by the time you have finished reading this paper your guilt over tithing or non-tithing will be gone forever!
It is our sincere desire that all who have been chafing under the unscriptural burden of Christian tithing will feel free at last to follow their heart in giving to whomever they desire as God prospers them. John 8:32 tells us that Truth is Freedom:
"And ye shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall make you FREE."

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